Monday, January 19, 2009

Why Windows users are still whiners

"Oh, you Linux lovers are just a bunch of whiners. You can use absolutely zero useful applications on Linux. All useful software is made for Windows, and a little bit for Macs. Linux is dragging along cause of Java and its servers uses. But seriously, get over it. Why not waste your time making the Linux experience better rather than whining like babies about how no one wants to use your supposedly almighty and all purposeful Linux."

Just an ordinary comment on an ordinary website, less than a year ago. This is the sort of comment we, Linux users and developers have to put up with each and every time. Linux is useless, just a toy, no applications worth mentioning. So how have I survived the last ten years, how did I get my work done? Those trolls claim I've been using the CLI! I've surfed the web using Lynx, used Mutt to read my email and typed raw LaTeX in Vi. I've installed Linux by endlessly editing /etc files, writing my own device drivers and compiled and tweaked the kernel until it fit.

This kind of FUD (some use the term SOFUD, "same old FUD") is used until this day. And as usual, we should sit back and relax. Well, not on my watch, so I decided to write "Windows users are whiners". This article repeats the same FUD all over again and provides some arrogant answers to settle this once and for all. It says "Dear developers, you've done an excellent job. It's not your fault people don't want to change. People don't want to change because they want an effortless transition". Because changing Operating Systems takes some effort. You may have to convert or edit some content. Hell, sometimes you even have to recreate or reformat content. If you don't want to do that, that's alright with me, but don't blame it on the system. Linux will never be a Windows clone. If you want a Windows clone, wait for ReactOS.

It is not very hard to find any Windows related pages where Linux is bashed and the same old FUD is repeated until your head hurts. What surprised me even more when I researched this article is that there are enough pages where Windows proponents are bashing each other with the same vigor as Linux. If you don't migrate to Vista or Windows 7, you are a whiner, because your complaints are just not real. You're obviously doing something wrong, using bad hardware or using bad drivers, because this masterpiece Microsoft has produced cannot be blamed for your problems.

If that is the attitude you have towards your peers, what will you do to your opponents? So next time you want to take the moral higher ground ask yourself this question: what have you done to earn that position?

21 comments:

wisher said...

Why are you going on talking about moral technology?
I think one of us (I am not saying that I am right) is missing something.
The only thing I know is that someone is going to find help in metaphysics when the real world is no more offering chances to show that he is right.

About the software: Linux is full of GNU and open source software, but what about professional software?
In a lot of situation unfortunately there is no valid alternative to closed programs that runs only on closed platforms.
It is not Linux fault but that is.

You said that Windows users are bashing themselves about the version of the operating system they are using. I am not here to tell you that is not true because it actually is true.
The thing I would like to share with you is that KDE users are flamming with Gnome users, Ubuntu users are flamming with Gentoo users and so on.
Self-bashing is not a Windows exclusive, not at all.

Steve said...

@wisher

[quote]
About the software: Linux is full of GNU and open source software, but what about professional software?
In a lot of situation unfortunately there is no valid alternative to closed programs that runs only on closed platforms.
It is not Linux fault but that is.
[/quote]

Err... Google runs a professional business on Open source. The same can be said for open source software, many of its applications are more professional then closed source applications. Is Firefox better then IE? Can Firefox be regarded more professional then IE? It runs on more architectures has better feathers then the closed source proprietary software.

I work for a company that uses lots of proprietary closed source software. Some of it is good quality software, some of it (most) is utter crap. All the proprietary closed source software has deep lock in and is used by the software suppliers to extract the maximum dollars possible from the business. Depending on complexity many bits of this software can be replaced by open source. Packaged software in particular often has open alternatives. Complex enterprise software is difficult to replace easily. For example Microsoft does not offer a product to replace SAP, but nor does open source at this point in time (some may argue over this).

Most home users and small business us packaged software, so have plenty of choices of software they can run. Linux packages the software very nicely. In this point, Linux leads Windows, because Microsoft's lack of automated package management.

[quote]
You said that Windows users are bashing themselves about the version of the operating system they are using. I am not here to tell you that is not true because it actually is true.
The thing I would like to share with you is that KDE users are flaming with Gnome users, Ubuntu users are flaming with Gentoo users and so on.
Self-bashing is not a Windows exclusive, not at all.
[/quote]

I think there is a bit of mine is better then yours attitude, especially from developers. This helps drive innovation. Competition is good. Microsoft can't say the same as they drive the development. Thus no drive to make Vista better, when they can sell you Win7. In the Joe user Linux forums you generally don't get users putting down the others desktop choice for example. They may say I like KDE 3.5 better the KDE 4, or Gnome is better then KDE, for whatever reason. Users will not be affected by this robust discussion.

You do see some sparks from thing like the Novell MS deal. And so we should it helps keep things in perspective.

Anonymous said...

"About the software: Linux is full of GNU and open source software, but what about professional software?
In a lot of situation unfortunately there is no valid alternative to closed programs that runs only on closed platforms."

I agree, Steve you can’t just mention a browser to divert attention. The fact of the matter is virtually every area of software is dominated by a single closed source application.

Photoshop, Nero, Premier, Squeeze, Powerdvd, Autocad, ProE, Soundbooth, On Location to name just a few enterprise level applications I use on a daily basis . It’s the same wherever you look these applications are not on top because their users are idiots they’re on top because they are the best.

What does that tell you about open source software? Show me a designer who uses gimp or a video editor who uses virtuadub. The very idea makes me laugh.
After decades of development it’s clear that open source applications are far below their proprietary rivals, don’t believe me? Take a look at this photo and tell me that virtualdub is better than premier.
http://bayimg.com/image/manfiaabb.jpg
.. Thought not

wisher said...

Seems that you don't want to understand what I am meaning. Or can you find me for example an open source good cad program. I am not saying that open software is bad, I use it every day, but that today we can't live in a completely open world.

How can a flame on what is the best Linux distribution drive innovation? In my opinion a flame fragments the market share. And having 2 different software is not making one of them any better.
You just have your developers split in two projects instead that working together to make the "definitive" product.
The result is that we can see for example good features in Gnome, good features in KDE but none of them is significantly better than the other.

The Beez' said...

A nice list of CAD programs
Another nice list of CAD programs

Yes, both closed-source and OpenSource. No, AutoCAD is not listed, but that was not your question. Some of them read AutoCAD formats though.

The Beez' said...

@Anonymous
Why should a Linux user want to use a (admitted: OpenSource) Windows program??

Anonymous said...

You can stick whatever you want on the other side of that photo fact of the matter is these programs are the best applications available and the open source alternatives are subpar knockoff's.

Stick Photoshop and gimp side by side and you will get the name results.

Were constantly told how open source software is supiorer but the facts just don’t add up.

If open source software is supporter why don’t designers use gimp? Why do I use Premier and on location at work (Id tell you what I do but considering your reaction to my admittedly constant swearing id think it would upset your sense of taste). Why do architects use AutoCAD why do engineers use ProE hell even your YouTube streaming video is made possible by the Sorenson Squeeze Pro codec.

Every single area of software is dominated by closed source software that’s not a coincdence. Open Source is a crock like being green , You’re not telling us to use these rubbish applications because they’re any good it’s just good old fashioned anti consumerism .

Telling people to stop using applications like Photoshop is a joke. I believe in giving credit where it’s due not lavishing praise on subpar applications because they are open source .

Steve said...

@ Anonymous

[quote]
I agree, Steve you can’t just mention a browser to divert attention. The fact of the matter is virtually every area of software is dominated by a single closed source application.

Photoshop, Nero, Premier, Squeeze, Powerdvd, Autocad, ProE, Soundbooth, On Location to name just a few enterprise level applications I use on a daily basis . It’s the same wherever you look these applications are not on top because their users are idiots they’re on top because they are the best.
[/quote]

How many users of windows have Photoshop, and Premier, and Squeeze, and Autocad and ...
My point is that there is a replacement for most pieces of software. Some open source is better then the closed source, and some not.
It also depends on your requirements. Take the review of the GIMP on the link below. it performs very well against Photoshop. It may not meet a ultra professional spending all there time in one application. The reality is the GIMP is good enough for most tasks. You also get to keep your $1,209 australian dollars. If you are a casual user, I know what I would use.

Your argument is NOT representative of MOST user requirements. Below is list of your list against Linux and open source alternatives.


Photoshop, CS4 $1,209 The GIMP http://arstechnica.com/reviews/apps/gimp-2-6-review.ars
Nero, $160.97 K3B Arguabily the best DVD/CD burner encoder on the market
Premier, $1,480.34 Kdenlive and others http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_video_editing_software
Squeeze, $1,034.00 Many encoders ie ffmpeg, and front ends for Linux
Powerdvd, $42.16 PowerDVD runs on Linux http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerDVD nand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_media_players
Autocad, $5,247.13 Yes some at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_CAD_software
ProE, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_CAD_editors_for_AEC
Soundbooth Yes some at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_audio_editor

Steve said...

@ wisher

[quote]
The result is that we can see for example good features in Gnome, good features in KDE but none of them is significantly better than the other.
[/quote]

Both they are significantly different. Both are driving innovation.

The Beez' said...

@wisher
"How can a flame on what is the best Linux distribution drive innovation? In my opinion a flame fragments the market share. And having 2 different software is not making one of them any better".

Strangely, this argument is often - I do not claim I'm right this time - posed by Americans, who were educated in the benefits of "competition", "choice" and "let the market decide".

Obviously, when it comes to the products of the monopolist Microsoft, they seem to perform some kind of "doublethink" and forget all about it. Note that "competition" and "choice" do not automatically mean "incompatibility". My stereo and TV set consists of components of different manufacturers, but works just fine without adapters. That's where standardization (real stuff, like W3C, ISO, ANSI, IEEE, etc.) is for. I know, a concept that is completely alien to Microsoft.

Anonymous said...

Oh brother first of all your prices are WAY off , You just have to laugh in case you didnt notice I wasn’t asking for an open source video player or an open source image editor . I WAS ASKING WHY THE OPEN SOURCE APPLICATIONS ARNT IN THOSE POSITIONS.

You’re the one telling us how amazing amazing open source is yet when I ask for software you give me subpar applications.


Ill say it again Photoshop, Nero, Premier, Squeeze, Powerdvd, Autocad, ProE, Soundbooth, On Location to name just a few enterprise level applications I use on a daily basis . It’s the same wherever you look these applications are not on top because their users are idiots they’re on top because they are the best.

What does that tell you about Open Source Software ?

The Beez' said...

@MS-Anonymous
Why are you so upset? I'm not upset, although FOSS supporters have every reason to be.

Is it because in my next blog MS officials will be debunking most Linux myths and admit on record that all they've produced all these years has been FUD and "rubbish"?

Good night. I love you, you're a wonderful audience ;-)

Anonymous said...

Im not upset in the slightest , its just funny to see you dodge my question again and again

Personally i could care less about windows hell i even have a quad bay NAS that runs arm linux . Im more interested in windows mobile and to a much greater extent premier squeeze(The codec) and flash These applications deserve credit and are above and beyond their open source "rivals" .

How can something like this happen if the open source model is so fantastic .

Thats the question Ive posed again and again but with no awnser , Were told that the Open Source model is some magical process which can turn even the worst application into the best .

But thats just not the truth and the software market today is living proof of that . But i dont expect a response its the silver bullet agenst the whole open source argument .

The world is dominated by closed source applications not because people are idiots but because these applications are above and beyond the competition .

The Beez' said...

@MS-Anonymous
Nobody is dodging your questions. Steve has taken a lot of effort to show you that a lot of FOSS programs are able to stand a comparison with their commercial counterparts. The only criterion you are using is marketshare.

Note there is a reason for that, and FUD and ignorance play an important role. "Nobody has ever been fired for choosing the market leader" is a well known saying in the Netherlands.

If we can not decide on the same set of criteria, discussions are futile. In the meanwhile, I'll be profesionally using my LyX wordprocessor, which makes me infinitely more productive than that bugridden "rubbish" called Word.

Steve said...

@The Beez

Your right, "windows users are whiners". Especially this Anonymous fellow.

@MS-Anonymous
Good to see that your not upset. Your comments seemed to indicate otherwise, with all that yelling in your posting.

Good to see that you are using Linux. Personally windows hell is one of the reasons I use Linux, but thats up to you.

Good to see that you are interested in mobile embedid devices. It looks like windows has a lot to catch up on, given the recent trends. The future for windows mobile technology does not look good. Given that Google and Nokia and Palm are all converging on open source and Linux software. I found this link, its indicative of the challenge windows has to compete
http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT7065740528.html

Good to see you like squeeze(The codec) and flash. From where I see it, we Linux users don't seem to have a problem using Linux to add or spiffy desktop flash streams to YouTube. Wow isn't Compiz/Beryl desktop fantastic.

[quote]
Thats the question Ive posed again and again but with no answer , Were told that the Open Source model is some magical process which can turn even the worst application into the best .


But thats just not the truth and the software market today is living proof of that . But i don't expect a response its the silver bullet agenst the whole open source argument .
[/quote]

What..., I give you links and prices in Australian dollars, to prove a point. You are the one who makes unsubstantiated claims.

[quote]
The world is dominated by closed source applications not because people are idiots but because these applications are above and beyond the competition .
[/quote]

Windows has a lead on the desktop, because of proven and prosecuted monopolistic tactics.

Why are you so set on pushing windows on us Linux users, we are smart enough to see past this folly. Linux leads massively over windows with regard to supercomputing.
http://www.top500.org/stats/list/32/osfam

Linux lead windows in the embeded space, Maybe the the desktop will be next... Is that what you are afraid of?

The Beez' said...

@MS-Anonymous
Ok, you movie buff, I've collected some info on "Linux in the movies":
- Did you know the CGI on "Titanic" was created and rendered with Linux?
- Did you know the CGI on "Spirits within" was rendered with Linux?
- Did you know that The Matrix, Titanic, Gladiator, Superman Returns, What Dreams May Come, Cats and Dogs, Shrek, The Perfect Storm, Prince of Egypt,
The Road to El Dorado, Antz, Chicken Run, Deep Blue Sea, Star Trek: Insurrection, Fantasia 2000, Men in Black, Hollow Man and many many more, were created with Linux software such as RAYZ, Maya or Shake?

No Windows were harmed in creating these movies. REAL professionals use Linux!

The Beez' said...

@MS-Anonymous
And the list goes on and on:

http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;1055311148;fp;4;fpid;804870237
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=/iel5/2/21180/00982926.pdf?arnumber=982926
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9018361
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9653
http://cinepaint.klik.atekon.de/

Photo retouching:
http://www.print-photos.net/free-alternatives-for-professional-photo-editing/
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/6635
http://cinepaint.klik.atekon.de/
http://www.justskins.com/photoshop/10-free-alternatives-for-adobe-photoshop-software/1235
http://www.ephotozine.com/article/Your-guide-to-the-tools-in-Photoshop-Gimp-and-Paint-Shop-Pro-X2
http://thelinuxadvocate.blogspot.com/2006/08/gimp-vs-photoshop-what-still-needs-to.html
http://reviews.zdnet.co.uk/software/contentcreation/0,1000001068,39288136,00.htm
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20081001-gimp-2-6-released-one-step-closer-to-taking-on-photoshop.html
In short, Hollywood uses the GIMP intensively. With the introduction of 2.6 has come a lot closer to PS (32 bit depth) and people expect it to catch up in 2.8. In short, it is either PS or GIMP. don't bother with PS Elements, PSP etc. because they are less capable and more expensive.

Music:
http://pro-music-news.com/html/10/e80721xt.htm
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/10162
http://www.linuxjournal.com/users/dave-phillips/track
Some professional musicians use Linux. Nuff said. So it can be done.

Steve said...

It's a shame some windows users are to stuck in there own little worlds, and can't see past the half a dozen or so applications that they see as the center of the earth.

If Anonymous could get out more, he may see the wonderful professional applications he is missing.

Cheers,

Steve

None said...

I'll tell you why Beez/Steve have been avoding answering your questions like the plague. They know very well, that Linux FOSS software is subpar, and at best worthless knocksoffs, thats exactly why professionals use Windows, and in some cases Macs.

"But FOSS software is good enough for the regular casual user!"

Yes, but so is all the freeware that is available for Windows

Linux will frver be stuck at a userbase of around 1% of PCs. There are simply not any good enough reasons for people to quit Windows.
Your lies about "security"? I've been running Windows without any antivirus program for years now, without any problems.

And you really have to be too poor t even afford a computer, if the 50-100 dollars that Windows costs preinstalled is a major issue for you. I consider that price to be a bargain for the quality software, ease of use, lack of headaches regarding if my drivers will work, and familiarity, that Windows delivers at the price.

Hell, even though Linux is free, lost productivity because I have to learn a new OS and applications will easily run up in many hundreds of dollars

The Beez' said...

" I've been running Windows without any antivirus program for years now, without any problems."

It is obvious that not only your computer has been turned into a zombie.

Miretank said...

Wow, thanks God I am an open-minded user.